Filmmaker Billy Luther Talks ‘Frybread Face & Me.’

Filmmaker Billy Luther talks with Sandy about his coming-of-age film, ‘Frybread Face and Me,’ which was executive-produced by Taika Waititi and distributed by Ava DuVernay’s company, Array, on Netflix.

Written and directed by Billy, ‘Frybread Face and Me’ was selected for SXSW 2023's Narrative Spotlight and TIFF 2023's Discovery and New Wave Selects. Billy’s feature documentary, Miss Navajo, premiered at the 2007 Sundance Film Festival and aired nationally on PBS’ Independent Lens that same year.

Billy has also served as a writer and director on the hit AMC series Dark Winds, adapting Tony Hillerman's novels featuring Navajo tribal police investigations.

You can watch ‘Frybread Face and Me,” ‘Miss Navajo,’ and all of Billy’s films for free on his website here: https://billyluther.com

If you have Netflix, go watch ‘Frybread Face and Me’ right now!  Pick up the remote, click the link.  Do.  

The PAGE International Screenwriting Awards sponsors the WRITERS' HANGOUT.
Executive Producer Kristin Overn
Creator/Executive Producer Sandy Adomaitis
Producer Terry Sampson
Music by Ethan Stoller

Transcript

0:11

Hello, my name is Sandy, the social media director for the page, international Screenwriting Awards, and your host for the Writer's Hangout. A podcast that celebrates the many stages of writing, from inspiration to the first draft, revising, getting a project made and everything in between. We'll talk to the best and the brightest in the entertainment industry and create a space where you can hang out, learn from the pros, and have fun. Hey writers, it's Sandy. I'm coming to you from Studio City, California, the crown jewel of the San Fernando Valley. And if you drive 80 miles north, you'll find yourself in Santa Barbara, a beautiful spot and where I got to spend some time this week with my cousins Matt and John. Santa Barbara is this picturesque coastal city nestled between the Santa Ynez Mountains and the Pacific Ocean. When the fires aren't raging, the weather is perfect year-round. and while it's upscale, it has a laid back beach vibe. Now, while I was driving north, I made sure to stop by to see Meghan and Harry at their Montecito farm. unfortunately, when I rang the gate, no one answered. Writers, boy, do I have a great show for you today. My guest is Billy Luther, an award-winning indigenous writer, director, and producer with two Sundance world premieres, and the Netflix feature entitled Fry Bread Face and Me, which we talk a lot about in this episode, and my voice sounds much better in this interview. I have been suffering from an allergy cough and losing my voice. Writers, let's start the show Billy Luther, thank you so much for joining us on The Writers Hang Out. Thank you for having me. Hey, I've been asking my guests lately at the top of the show, did you try to get Olympic tickets? No. Because I thought the state of the world are we gonna make it to 2028? I can't plan that far ahead. How about the World Cup? Are you gonna do any World Cup? No. I'm... No. Not your thing? I mean, I would go, to experience if someone gave me a ticket, but- Okay I'm a Dodgers, you know, I'm a Dodgers guy, so I- Cool pretty much. But if anybody out there who's listening has an extra ticket, I will put you and Billy together for the World Cup. Okay. Okay. Yes. I'll go. I'll go. Okay. And excuse me, I have a allergy cough, so I hope that won't happen too much. Billy- congratulations on Frybread Face and Me, which you wrote and directed, and is currently on Netflix. Mm-hmm. And I actually got Netflix just to see Frybread Face and Me- and I loved it so much. Aw. Can you tell us about the movie? Yeah. you know, the, the title, it's a tongue twister for so many people. My, my- producers and everybody was like, "Change the title. Change it." I said, "Nope. Everyone's gonna learn how to say frybread." Yes. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's a coming-of-age story about this urban kid, this urban Native American kid who is, searching for his identity, and not just culturally, but you know, figuring himself out. It's a parallel to my experience. I grew up in San Diego. I was suppressing, who I really was 'cause, at 10, 11, you're still trying to figure stuff out. but yeah. and during the summers, I would spend time on my grandmother's ranch on the Navajo reservation, and it... You know, she spoke no English. I spoke no Navajo, and it would just be the two of us. And our communication was, gesture, smiles, looks, it was so special, and I didn't realize how, special it was until, as an adult, as a writer, those movements and the nuances of just no words is what I put into a lot of my writing and my work. You know, there's love, that's just the natural, and I believe that is such a big part of my adulthood and my life and my creative, my creative life You know what I just thought of while you were talking, did you there are subtitles in the movie, so when the grandmother's speaking you can understand her. Did you make a choice? You could have done no subtitles. And w- did you go back and forth on that, or that was just from the get-go you were gonna use subtitles? Well, the I wanted people to experience, what Benny was. he went to the reservation it was part of his experience of, communication with his grandmother not understanding. And the film had come out, people were like, "Did you forget to do the subtitles?" And blah. And, and I tell them, you know, the, uh, my, you know, my thought process on that, and it just makes sense to them. The sad thing about Netflix subtitles, they're not the subtitles that we brought in and had in our festival, journey and, and all of that. I don't know what they go through with the Netflix, but there's some really mistakes and things So Netflix has their own, subtitler. Um, Yeah. And we can't fix it right now. Culturally, did they get words wrong? Because as a viewer- No I didn't know what I was missing. Yeah. So I certainly still enjoyed it. Okay. That's fine. Yeah, no, I think it's more cultural, like Navajo. Oh, okay. Just the little things, but are kind of big things in Navajo land. But nothing negative. now Did the script for Frybread Face and Me change from your first draft to the finished film? Yeah. You know what happened was I started writing this, you know... this is my first feature, my first like finished screenplay. Talk about hitting it out of the park Oh, thank you. But you know what? I worked in documentary for about 15 years before, and I just fell in that. You know, I, I went to film school to write and direct, but I made a documentary 'cause I borrowed a camera. That's a different story, and I made a feature documentary called Miss Navajo. You gotta see that. It's, so I began writing this story, throughout, my documentary years and I wrote a draft. It was very long. And I kept, going at it. I kept like coming, you know, kept, hmm, uh, pulling it apart, putting it back together. And I was... I said, "I have to go on that journey that I went as a kid," where my parents brought me from California to my grandmother's ranch in Arizona. So I took two weeks off for myself, and I did the same drive the roads and, the... to get there. Stopped at the same, uh, rest areas that we'd stay, you know, stop at. The, in Barstow or, just that whole j- journey that I took. And I wasn't rushing. I was... I would... Sometimes something would come out, and I'd be like at the rest area, and like a, a scene would come out in my head and... Or I stayed at the same, motels, hotels that we stopped at, and these, stayed in the room and, thought some things. But what happened when I arrived to my grandmother's home was all the memories of summer and my childhood, and my cousins all began to come back. And, you know, the tree that with the swing on is still there. It's the one we always swung on, and, the hikes that we'd take, and the sheep, and all of that, it just came to me. And I took my journey back to LA, it was a very slow drive, So when I came back to LA, I started, and it wouldn't stop, and I needed to go back, on, that track that why I went on as a kid and go, on that journey as an adult again. What a magical journey for your first screenplay you got to relive your childhood writing this. Yeah, you know, in, in film school you... I, of course, attempted many times and, you know, stuck on page 30. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, like I said, I fell into documentaries. Billy, my goodness, right now documentaries are just huge. Do you find it interesting that- I hope they- everybody knows about The documentary The Crash, Yeah. I think documentaries really were strong, 20 years ago, even 10. Now they're, you know, I think the documentaries are very Netflixy, you know what I mean? They're- Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're not- I, I agree a voice of the filmmakers that they were 20 years ago. You get these small docs, And I guess that's all the industry is, really shifting, so, TV's now six to eight episodes, not 21. The thing I think about documentaries now is 10, 20 years ago, I always felt that the doc mentary people behind the scenes were doing everything ethically and so much passion. And while I do enjoy you know, on a Saturday night, a Netflix doc- Mm-hmm I go in knowing they're gonna leave stuff out, they're gonna fit their own narrative, and it usually is around the people that they can get to talk. Yeah. Yeah. It's, before I think it, I don't know, it's just maybe me being in a curmudgeon. Back in the day- I thought they were better. Yeah. I agree. my work has been on public television, PBS and CPB funded, my past documentaries, and that was something special because it was a place for independent filmmakers to get their work, seen, before this whole doc thing exploded, right? But you know finishing Frybread was, again, my documentary experience. I was able to tell a story, in scenes that weren't about words, just watching the grandmother, washing his hair outside. Oh. It's beautiful, stunning. Oof. Yeah so good. So good. Now you not only wrote this, you directed it. Mm-hmm. And who wins on set, Billy, when you are the writer and the director, and you can't make your day be, and get a certain shot in? Mm-hmm. Who wins? The approach was very different, you know, with this one. Everyone just got out of, COVID, lockdown, so this was like early, June 2021, and so everybody was excited to be around other people, right? Um, okay, we had this COVID, protocols too. We couldn't all be together. it was just really strange and... But the people who were on board, it was a, very low budget. People- Believed in this film. People loved the story. I was talking to different cameramen, they're like, "I know how to shoot this. I read this and this is how I s-," you know. And everybody was doing it for the story, the film. And we'd talk every now and then, but I, the, I, luckily I had a producer and a camera team and actors who, stayed, with, the story and the script, you know? But also grandmother, I, just told her, I was like, she speaks now English in, in real life, but I just said, "If you wanna add things, go ahead," and my approach with grandma was I told my camera crew, "Let's film her as we're, if we're just with her, like a documentary. Let's just watch with her. Let's be with her. We're in her world." That way, and also with the kids, I was like, "You have all this land to go about and run around." I was like, "You're not gonna be thinking, looking down and looking at if you hit your mark or not," because I h- I wanted them to have that freedom. there's so much out there that I thought I can't limit them to, s- making, you know, hitting their marks. And that's how we rolled. That's, and that- Yeah, you did a really good job c- is when you wanted it intimate It was intimate, and you had just that huge expanse to shoot on. Mm-hmm. I thought you did amazing. And, and the balance, I never felt I, I always was with whatever you were showing me. Oh, wow. That's awesome. Yeah, no, it... And, too, it was my story as well, so people knew the exact, you know, what I, what I felt, you know, in terms of, the lighting, the mood, the feel. And luckily we had a team of a lot of Navajo. they'd set dress. There was the detail, fine detail. And you know what? I'm just gonna tell you. I was at a screening of, at a festival, and the film at the Q&A, he got up, and it was a Navajo man, and he started talking about kind of the art direction and the, all of that. And he said, "That mug that was on that table with that family," and he started tearing up. He was like, "My grandmother had that mug." Oh. And those are the little details that you get into in the film if you're, from that world of Navajo. And Everything w- that we built. We built the hogan. We dra- you know, we dragged in the, trailer. We built the the sheep corral. All of it. There was nothing there, and we built it, and it's because we had a lot of Navajo people on set that were building things. Who knew what they were doing. Knew, exactly, yes. And those details are in my script. You know what I mean? It's- Yes grandmother. Like, he- there's a Navajo Nation fair. I go, all those little details make, make sense to the viewer. Yes. So I feel like you wa- you're in there, like this has always been here. You know what I mean? As a viewer, a Navajo, non-Nat- Navajo, you're probably like, "This is, this feels lived." Exactly. Now, you your two leads were young. Mm-hmm. Keir Tellmann as Benny- Uh-huh and Charlie Hogan as Frybread Face. Yes. Love them. Where did you find them? Have they been in a lot of movies before? No. It's their first films, both of them. Ugh. I know. The face on that little boy, I just want to hug and kiss all day long. I know. Well, the funny thing about that is today I f- I do some Instagram reels and TikTok reels about, the making of my films, stories behind them, and the funny thing is I just finished the one about the casting today. And so Casting them, it w- it was COVID, lockdown. all the casting went through Zoom. I couldn't meet these people, and we were doing reads and, Charlie came in and we knew right away, like literally five seconds in, I was like, this is Fry Bread." She was so confident. She was telling us her world and how she saw, um, how she saw Fry Bread, and I was like, oh my God, she's already giving me notes. Um, but yeah, it was, that was a no-brainer. I, yeah, like casting director and producer were like, "Oh my gosh, that's her." And then Benny it took a while because we weren't getting a lot of Navajo boys, that age. We were getting a lot of other tribes, But for me, it was important to have a Navajo boy in this role. Yeah. Are you still in touch with them? Every now and then. I see them on Instagram and everything, but- Aw. they're, I mean, they're young adults now, you know? Keere is like six foot, and I'm like, "No," "you're-" Get out of town. So, so Keere, yeah, we finally found Keere at the very end, I think a month before we were gonna shoot, because I told all our funders, "We had a Benny," and I ripped some photo off like, I don't know, I was like, "This looks like Benny. He's Navajo," and I just threw it on there. And so everybody thought that this, you know, but then Benny came out and they're like, "That's not the boy you..." So that's what you do. As a creative, as a filmmaker or a producer, you just hustle and say, "Hey, this is him." But another boy showed up. Now, all the characters in Fry Bread were so rich and compelling. I want a movie just about the younger aunt. I wanna see where did she go? Was she going to go to beauty school? Where did she go? Yes. She ex- yes. For Phoenix? Yeah, that's where she went. Oh I want to know where she is in Phoenix. I just loved her. Oh. Now I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a couple of names, and I just wanna hear, your first thought. Mm-hmm. Marvin, who played the, Martin? Size More- Yes who played Marvin. He, well, first off, he's married to Aunt Lucy, the one you were just talking about. They, they're like the hottest Navajo Indian couple. Not just Native American, best couple I've ever saw. But with both of them, I wrote with them in mind. Martin I've always wanted to work with him, and I wanted to see, 'cause he's always playing these very serious roles, and I said, "Just kind of open up." And he's like, "Billy, this role is serious." Oh, yeah. I'm like, "It is, right?" But yeah. He's- He's one of the, sweetest guys that I've, we've been friends since his first role in, in a movie, morningStar Angeline. Oh. Who- MorningStar is sisters with Sydney Freeland. Sydney Freeland is a Navajo director. She directs a lot of... She did Rez Ball just a lot of things, so. But, incredible. I've known her for a while, and she's working a lot. She's working a lot. And she's just a sweet person, and she understood, being the mom and understood the role, and she felt like she was connected to that mother and, it's yeah. It- everything just came up, together with her. Oh, I could not stop crying when those two were together, the grandmother and the daughter. I just... That was... Good job, Millie. That's all I can say. Let's talk Sarah Natani, Grandma. she's loved so much, people on the the rez s- you know, getting her autograph, take photos with her. I made this my first documentary, Miss Navajo, and my mother was Miss Navajo in the '60s, so now I think it's, a 70-year-old pageant now. They've been going on for 70 years. And this pageant is very different. They don't parade in bathing suits, but they do everything cultural. So there's a slaughtering sheep category, there's language, there's... It's really mind-blowing, and that's why I really wanted to follow this doc, 'cause, like, wow, this is- Right. And my connection with my mother, she told me stories as I was, growing up. And so I wanted to, show this kind of history of it, but also follow a young woman as she's competing that year. Preparing, then competing. And her grandmother was Sarah Natani, and this is, we were shooting in 2005, and, so I was, my producer and I were really searching, for a Navajo. And nobody was hitting it. And I thought, "Oh my God," I need to go back and see, and- Yeah, yeah and she was able to do it. And oh my God, it changed... Without her, there wouldn't be no, uh, a movie, really, 'cause she captured everything. She spoke no English, but the viewers, the audiences, and even the actors on set were... That was Grandma. She's... Yeah. I wanna hang out with her, actually. I know. Now, with... Was it difficult with the two young actors? Was it summer? 'Cause I was just wondering, you've got animals, you're not close to generators. Was it a tough shoot in that sense? That's, the, yeah. Um, you know, this during COVID we were doing a weekly Twice a week, COVID tests. And we had to shut down for two or three days, and that's devastating 'cause you're an independent, film or production, and oh my God, that was devastating. But also when you film with kids, you get limited hours. maybe seven hours or something. And so you were always going on the go. Like, you were all, "Okay, gotta go," you know? And 'cause you had to kept looking at the clock, and we were out in a remote area too, so it... They timed it when they left the hotel. You know what I mean? It wasn't timed when they stepped on set, it was when they left their place, so. our kids were in every single scene. Yeah. Yeah. So we were like, "Okay, they left," and we're like, "How do we..." So we came up... And my s- Nolan, my son about the same age and, had longer hair at the time, so he was able to do, stand-ins for them, and we dressed, put him in Fry's dress, and we would shoot, or, Benny put the cowboy hat, and we were able to get our pickup shots and, And so it worked. And so those kids would go home, and we'd throw, a dress on my son and- go run out in the sheep, and that sort of... And then, yes, the, animal thing, we lost, our sheep ran off, and it took us, like, an hour, and that hour we lost 'cause w- everyone was trying to ch- chase that sheep. Adorable. Hey a band is very important to the movie, Fleetwood Mac. Yes. was that you? Is that true? I've loved them, but I did- you know, I wasn't as obsessed as Benny, As Benny was. That's Benny, yeah. What I did with Fleetwood was my aunt, who was like an Aunt Lucy, she gave me Rumors, vinyl. And I took it home and I had never heard of them, and I just really started getting into them. I loved that album. And so that was my thank you to my aunt, you know- Uh-huh for having that, that. But yeah, I wasn't obsessed, I was more obsessed with- Okay Janet Jackson. Now, um, now I'm gonna do spoiler alert for the audience. You know, maybe go ahead 30, 40 seconds because this is this is a part of the movie that you wanna, that I'm gonna ask this question of and that you do really want to experience. So go ahead and we'll be here when you come back. Now, I loved Benny leaving the T-shirt. Mm-hmm. And I did not know what he left. You got me. I completely forgot about the T-shirt. Yeah. Take me through the creative process of landing on that moment. Yeah, with his journey in the film, He wore it all the time, and slowly he started taking things off and shedding things, not just physically but also kind of his identity and, and it began to, reveal himself a little bit more. And that shirt you really didn't see, later, I think maybe halfway through it maybe or maybe but- when I write, I step back and I think about, kind of like his, the journey, but also something that's just like people will forget, right? People will, forget about this or some- and then you just bring it back a bit. And not to hit people over the head with, but it's just something, minor that is meaning so much, and it's just that. And like I said, it's not words. It's something physical and, Exactly yeah. Exactly. And I felt like that was, what I would've done, at that age. next question also, we're still talking spoiler alerts, but Benny gets in the car, and he takes the headband off quickly for me, and it made me so sad when he did it. Mm-hmm. But you saved everything for me, you know, with the T-shirt and everything. Can we talk about that moment? Did you always know that he was gonna take the headband off in the car? Well, the head- headband was his thing, his real thing that he did in life. on some of his earlier casting, and when I was helping him- Oh, oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're saying the actual actor wore that headband? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That, you know, in the, in the, in the film, B- yeah, Benny Keir was wear- that, is that what you're talking about, the scarf headband? Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Yes. And that, I was like, "We gotta leave that in, man. That's his, this is you, and it really, it's how we want it to be." And, and I told him, "When you get back in the car, you're in mom's car. Your mother gave you that, um, hat, and you love her, and, What do you do when your mom, gives you something, and I, I felt like it was like his, thank you to his mom, aw, yes. Like, "This is who I'm here, and now I'm going back with you, and I'm gonna ride off to the sunset with you," you know? Mm-hmm. And that's what I felt at that. if you were starting out in the business today, would you shoot a vertical series or would you shoot a short film? I would do a short film. Because You have to know the story. ha- you have to know these kind of rules of it, and then you can break these rules, right? But verticals are, 60 to 90 seconds, right? Yep. That's all you get. That's, it's, that's all it is, and if you don't know how to tell a story and, cut when you need to cut, and Long form right now is what you need to know, because then you'll start knowing how to, tell stories. And you'll h- you can see your voice. But, a lot of people are jumping on now on these things, have never, Like, I have friends who, work in, not in the industry, and they're sending me scripts to read, and they're AI. You know? And there's a lot of fear in the industry, about it and everything. But for me, I'm looking at the tools, I'm learning, I'm being, getting, informed about it. I'm going to all these, AI conferences and micro whatever. And because- AI doesn't have my voice, doesn't have my experiences of being multi-tribal, gay, and it, a urban kid going to the res. It can't. Doesn't know that. And if you don't have that voice, then, you know, you're it's AI doesn't have, and you forgot to say incredibly handsome in your characteristics. Aw. Thank you. And, and great style. You have such great style. Yeah. Now, what does a typical writing day look like for you? I can- Do you find writing hard? I, you know what? Some days, but the funny thing is, like, all right, this is what's really sad that happened to me, right? Sandy, so Dark Winds, you know, two years ago I went on to do my own stuff, right? So I was like, okay, now 'Cause when you're on a television show, you're locked literally an entire year. You can't really do much. And I was like, "Gosh, I really wanna do my stuff." And, so I began writing, and I got the rights to I can't say because somebody who isn't here anymore, f- I worked for two years, Sandy. Did a lot of traveling, research, meeting people who worked with him, So two years, and then- Oh it died one day. Two years of this script, which I was so, everybody, my reps, everyone was so excited about it. And the family were like, "No." They, what they wanted was a documentary. They don't understand- Oh how story, you know, movies, you have to kind of, like, make up a character, yeah. So it was killed in, like, two minutes, and my two years of residencies and, developing it, funds for that, and just went away. But the next day I picked myself up, and I had all of these, these ideas. And, it's like that needed to happen for me to get into this new direction of, creating something different. I really wanna highlight that. It's, this business is not a straight line, and you could have, thrown your pen down and said, "I'm never gonna write again." Two years. Yeah. But you picked yourself right back up, and that is what you have to do. Yeah. This is really interesting to me, right? And it brought me back when I thought about that. But when I was 10 years old, my parents took me to go see The Color Purple, 1985, right? And, I went to the theater, and I've never experienced anything like that in my life at 10. I felt something, and I didn't know what it was. There was no, definition and I, I knew what I felt and I wanted to be-- I wanted to do that. I didn't know anything about writing. I didn't-- directing. I just wanted to do that. I wanted to make people feel what I felt, and I wanted to do that. And after the movie, I asked my dad, "Can I can you buy me the book?" Alice Walker's book. And he said, "No." And I was like, "Ugh." but I never read," I'm, I finally ask you to buy me a book. And so, we lived by a Woolworth's. They don't have those anymore, but we lived by a- Five and Dime And there was a grocery store, like a little shopping area that we lived by. And my dad would go to the grocery store, and I saw it on the rack at the Woolworth's next door, and that's how I started reading that book, and I'd put it back on the rack and I'd go, and sometimes I'd ride my bag- bike over there. But that's how I finished that book, chapter by chapter, 10 years old, Billy Luther. Just so cool. And, and I... That's how I finished it. That's how I read it. And so I feel that, that, those no's and those things that, hold me back, I have to find a way to do it, right? I have to figure it out and say, "Okay, I'm..." And that's how I felt about this two-year script that died. It's like, you know what? This script actually s- changed my life in a way, It's about an artist coming to LA, a Native artist coming to LA not knowing anybody, trying to make it, and I was like, "I identify with that." I came to LA and I didn't know a soul. And it was about, using your culture with humor and, that was his art. And but I told, my partner, he was like, you should be more devastated." And I'm like, "No, you know what? It's about the journey," that's what the people say. Yes. It's all about that journey, you know? This film would've been something else, yeah, if it went, but I think it had a bigger impact dying and, it gave me this- motivation to do and, like I said, create more. Yeah. That is so interesting. when you write, do you have, a favorite pen, a knick-knack? Do you have superstitions? There's always these, so and so, never wrote on Fridays. I can't write more than three hours a day. I get, woo, it's like, oh, good. Yep. I had enough. But I create a playlist, Spotify playlist of what I'm thinking in my head, what I'm gonna, like, score pop, you know, Billboard chart. So- Very cool I go into that, that world. I'm writing right now about Gen X, so I'm going into the '80s and '90s, music right now. So I just create a playlist and I keep it in my car, so I drive and like, ah. Love it. So I have my voice notes, So I say dialogue or whatever. But yeah, sometimes it's like I'm up until 3:00 AM, you know? Yep. I don't know. It's weird. Now, The Cure, my favorite '80s, so- Okay. Yes, yes look, look into them. And now I don't know, I don't do Spotify, so I don't know how it works. Could my listeners look at your Spotify list to- Yes, I'll send it to you. You don't even have to be a subscriber for it, I don't think. You just click it and it's like, yeah. Okay, cool. Mm-hmm. And then I can publish that and say, "Billy Luther's Spotify list for writing." I go deep. I go really deep, you know? Into, like, Brian Eno and The Cure and, you know, it's, Kate Bush, my goodness, Kate Bush. I know. I worship her. And I even saw... And I'm blanking. I'm blanking, I'm blanking, I'm blanking. Ice Cubes. Cubes. Yes So- not Sonic Youth. He killed himself, and then the other band became- Oh, New Order? New Order. Okay. Joy, the Joy Division, and oh my God, have you seen that movie, Control, about Joy Division? No. Shocking black and white. Oh my God, I'm gonna give you a list. That is... Oh my God, that's such a good movie. One of my favorite. Oh, cool. Yeah. Oh, cool. Great. When you started out, what was your biggest misconception about what it means to be a working writer and director? before film school I had this thought, like this way of thinking. And then when I was at film school, this big explosion of like Tarantino, Pulp Fiction was out. So it was like this big like, oh my God, you know, as me and the other, students were like, "We want awards, we want the Oscar." And that was your goal of running towards and going, you know. and As I'm 50, you know, I look at it and I say- like the work that I do, if it resonates with people, Native and non-Native, that's rewarding to me. And that's not being cliche because, Oscars, they're p- they're bought, it's a campaign to, millions of dollars for a campaign to say, "Vote for me," that money could go to independent filmmakers. No, they want millions of dollars, but they thank God too after that, and I'm like, "You, that was paid by Sony." but yeah, I... So I have a healthy family. My boys are healthy, and they support what I do, and I'm living, and I am, getting income dreaming, imaginating things, creating things. Who knew? Like you could get paid for this, right? so blessed to do this and, 'cause there's only two things that I know how to do. It's wait tables- and write, direct. did. Cool. What I do wanna tell you, Sandy- Oh before, this is I am developing now this, um... It's a book. It's a real a memoir of, this woman, Dr. Laurie. She's a Navajo woman. She's the first Navajo woman surgeon, and she became a surgeon in the 90, '93, so that's where also I'm back into the '90s Gen X thing, and she began, working on the Navajo Rez at this, hospital. And true story, it's called The Scalpel and the Silver Bear, and it's a book that you should read. It's a fast read. And it's about first surgeon, and it's the first time the hantavirus came around- Huh with the, in the '90s. Wow. So this book is really cool, and I am like, oh my God, this is so good. And it's also the, the contradictions of being Navajo and, the beliefs of touching the dead or touching inside somebody's body, which is a huge taboo. And so she wants to heal people, but she's also, doing a very, a thing that's not culturally so she's living with this, and it's such an incredible story, and I'm having so much fun, digging in it and learning so much about myself and my culture. And that's what I do with all of my films. since I lived off the reservation in the city, my films, teach me. There are... I, I learn so much going into these worlds and these communities and Native, reservations. I learn more about myself, how cool. I'm gonna read that right away. I can't wait. are you in the research stage, or are you writing? Yeah. Well, you know, I'm, I'm talking to her a lot, and I'm just developing, 'cause I, I started to develop it with as a television series, you know, six things. Mm-hmm. And I was like it works, it works." And then I thought, "You know what? It would be such a powerful film," and I was like, "A Navajo Erin Brockovich." Yes. Yes. So a badass, kickass Navajo woman, but you know, also, Sandy, I love writing about my aunties and my grandmothers and, the women in my, Native culture, raised me, and that is, part of why I love working and writing with women, and, just been strong. I feel that in your writing. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Would you like to share any of your social media handles? Yes. Instagram is @itsbillyluther, I-T-S billyluther, and also on X, it's just @billyluther, and, I'm not on Facebook really. It's, like, Instagram. I still have a hard time saying X. How about you? I don't like that either, right? It's, Twitter. No, don't like it. Twitter. Now, your son Nolan- Yes has amazing baked goods. Can you tell us about Nolan? can you believe, like Nolan is a freshman, or he just completed freshman at NYU Tisch. He's a cinematographer. you know how he wanted to work in film? When he was about seven or eight years old, I gave him an old camera, and then he told me, he's "You know what made me want to do this is when you gave me that camera." And you know, he's- still a baker, still a cook. I'm gonna see him this weekend. He has a list of restaurants that he wants to go to, and, he knows I'm gonna be paying for them, so he, that's why, you know, he's... Eating at the dorms was not his thing. Reminder. Yeah. I'm so sorry. Alexa, stop. Oh my God. I know, my Siri went off when I was talking. I adore Noland, and he- Oh is just an amazing baker. How does he like New York? It was hard for him at first. Hard for all of us, right? oh my God, it was so... I'd never felt anything like that, Sandy. I your kid is, not in your home anymore. So, like a month and a half I was crying every day. And it was hard for him too, 'cause, first time out in a big city. So now we can barely even get in touch with him. Before we were talking every day, now I'm like, "Hey, are you gonna text me?" So he's doing summer s- class, and he's gonna do, another year, because I told him, the way the industry is going right now, jump in it. Get into work now, it's like, your employers aren't gonna say, "Oh, you have a, you know, degree in..." Sadly, but I'm like, "Yeah, just get all that knowledge and work with people." you don't wanna be in your room cutting and, making your own verticals in your room by yourself. You wanna be with people. I'm motivating, not only him, but myself too. I can't, think about, what's gonna happen with AI in our industry. I gotta keep going, I gotta keep reading that Color Purple. When in doubt, read the Color Purple. Exactly. Even if the words aren't there, read it. You'll find a way. Billy, once again, where can we see Fry Bread Face and Me? It is on Netflix. But Sandy- Yes your listeners, if they don't have Netflix, I can give them a Vimeo link, and I'll give you the password if they message you to see the password. But all of my films are there. Red Lake, my short. Kenji. All my work, it's on my website. Oh, can- Billyluther.com. They are, they're all on there. Oh, cool. I did not know that. How about Ms. Navajo? All my films See how amazing you are. Billy Luther, thank you so much for being such a great guest on the Writer's Hangout. Please, let's do it again. Thank you so much. and that's a wrap for the Writer's Hangout. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Your positive feedback will help us keep the show going so we can continue bringing you more future episodes. Remember, keep writing. The world needs your stories. The Writers Hangout is sponsored by the Page International Screenwriting Awards, with executive producer Kristen Overn, Sandy Adamides, And our music is composed by Ethan Stoller. Alexa, you are gaslighting me,