The Writers Hangout
THE WRITERS HANGOUT, a podcast that celebrates the many stages of writing from inspiration to the first draft, revising, getting a project made and everything in-between. We’ll talk to the best and brightest in the entertainment industry and create a space where you can hang out, learn from the pros and have fun.
The Writers Hangout
Screenwriter Stephen Gaghan of 'Traffic' Fame Took Some Rough Turns On The Road To Success
Rewind: How do they do it? How do successful writers become successful? They must all lead charmed lives. One imagines a successful writer who works hard, gets up at 4 a.m., goes to the gym, then slides behind the laptop for four hours. Afternoons, they take their doodle around the block of their tony neighborhood, then put in another two solid hours of editing. Have a healthy dinner with friends, then go to bed for a brilliant night's sleep. Well, dear writers, as we know on The Writer's Hangout, it doesn't always go well when we tell you a story about a screenwriter.
Hang out with Sandy and Terry, who tell you the fascinating story of screenwriter and director Stephen Gaghan, known for writing the screenplay for Soderbergh's film TRAFFIC, for which he won the Academy Award for Best Adapted Screenplay, and Syriana, which he wrote and directed.
Research for this episode included:
The Newsweek article Sheik, Rattle and Roll by Newsweek Staff
https://www.newsweek.com/sheik-rattle-and-roll-115527
The New York Times article Gritty Portrayal Of the Abyss From a Survivor; The Screenwriter for 'Traffic' Says He Drew on His Past By Rick Lyman
The Los Angeles Times article Stephen Gaghan, one-time Hollywood wunderkind, returns after a long absence with ‘Gold’ by Steven Zeitchik
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-stephen-gaghan-gold-20161114-story.html
IMDB and Wikipedia
The PAGE International Screenwriting Awards sponsors the WRITERS' HANGOUT.
Executive Producer Kristin Overn
Producer/Host Sandy Adomaitis
Co-host Terry Sampson
Music by Ethan Stoller
👍 If you enjoy the show, please remember to follow us and leave a review where you listen to podcasts.
📸 Check out our IG for photos @thewritershangoutpodcast
💙 If you have an idea for the podcast or would like to comment, please contact us @thewritershangoutpodcast@gmail.com
PAGE International Screenwriting Awards
Hollywood's favorite screenwriting contest -- one of the industry's top sources for new talent.
Hello, my name is Sandy, the social media director for the page, international Screenwriting Awards, and your host for the Writer's Hangout. A podcast that celebrates the many stages of writing, from inspiration to the first draft, revising, getting a project made and everything in between. We'll talk to the best and the brightest in the entertainment industry and create a space where you can hang out, learn from the pros, and have fun.
Sandy:We are rolling. Hi, I'm Sandy ATIs. Hi, I'm Terry Sampson. Terry? Yep. I had the best morning. Really? I did. I got to go have breakfast with my girlfriends, which I haven't seen for a while. You know, when I
Terry:do that, I get in trouble. Let's keep
Sandy:going. Sharon's not a big fan of going No, apparently not. No. Well, but we went to ihop Uhhuh and I had blueberry pancakes with Oh, real blueberry. Always the greatest choice. Do you remember when blueberry or strawberry pancakes were just the sauce at ihop? That's all it was. It was flavor, sauce. Oh, everyone's gone fruit. Everyone's all in fruit. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. so I have had 25 cups of coffee and I'm raring to go. You ready, Terry? Not
as
Terry:well as you are, but maybe I'll just grab on and hold on tight.
Sandy:Okay. It's gonna be a rocket ride. All right. Okay, writers, I wanted to talk to you today about Steven Gagan. he's an Academy Award and. Emmy Award-winning writer and director. Steven is most known for writing the screenplay for traffic, which he won the Academy Award for, best adapted screenplay. did you ever see traffic Terry? I did. Did you like it? Yeah, I remember watching it. Mm-hmm. I don't think I was a huge fan, but I watched it again. I loved it. Okay. besides traffic, Steven directed and wrote screenplays for sira. 2005, abandoned 2002. His other writing credits include Havoc 2005, Alamo 2004. I could have put these in order, but I didn't. And Rules of Engagement, 2000 as well as a handful of episodes of television series. He started in television and he won an Emmy award for co-writing a N Y P D blues episode. Entitled, where's Aldo? Aldo, yes. Wow. Which I guess was a takeoff on Waldo in 1997. And he also wrote for the practice and New York Undercover. Wow. Um, Terry, that sounds like a smooth life, right? Yeah, well, Steven's life is complicated. He was born into solid middle class family and he had access to an excellent education and opportunity, but he also suffered from a drug addiction worthy of the legends who died of the drug overdoses before him. Wow. Through it all, Steven persisted. We're gonna go back to the beginning. Steven Gagan was born on May 6th, 1965 in Louisville, Kentucky. He attended Kentucky Country Day School, a college prep school in Louisville. He was an Allstate soccer player. He held the assist record at the school for nearly three decades. Steven said in a 2001 article in Newsweek,
Terry:I wasn't much different from my peers except where they could stop drinking after three or six or 10 drinks. I couldn't stop and wouldn't stop until I had progressed through marijuana, cocaine, heroin, and finally crack and freebase, which seemed for so many people to be the last stop on the elevator.
Sandy:Wow. Terry, do you wanna tell us the premise of traffic, please? I really don't feel like it.
Terry:No, I really do feel like it. A look in America's War on Drugs through several interconnected stories, Ohio's Supreme Court judge is appointed as the nation's drug czar. unaware that his own daughter is a heroin addict. two d e a agents pursue the wife of a jailed drugs barren, who seeks to control his lucrative business. And a Mexican cop takes a lone stand against the powerful cartels in his community. It starred Michael Douglas Benicio Del Toro, Catherine Zeta Jones, Erica, Kristin, Don Cheadle, Topher Grace, Dennis Quaid, Steven Bauer, and Louis Guzman.
Sandy:I mean, Don Cheadle alone, I'm in, right? Yeah. each, group of people had their own color is the way, Soderberg kind of set it all up. It was, it was really good. I highly recommend it. Now, Steven talked to the New York Times about the research period for traffic. Can you read that quote for us, Terry?
Terry:I remember when I was writing traffic, talking to top federal drug enforcement officials and having them say they read it and found it was very good and believable, except the scene where the girl describes her resume. It is the scene in which a prep school student arrested for drug possession ticks off her academic and athletic achievements to a disbelieving social worker. They said to me, there is no way this girl could be achieving at the level you have her achieving at and be using cocaine. I didn't say to them maybe I should have that. The resume I had, the girl reciting was my resume exactly at a time when I was drinking every day smoking marijuana and taking cocaine. The only thing I changed is that in reality, I had also been on the Allstate soccer team in Kentucky. I just had her on the school volleyball team. Isn't
Sandy:that wild? That's crazy. I thought, and this is a first for us. I thought we would do that scene from traffic. Are you in, are you game? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, cool. Here are your sides.
Terry:All right. Thank you.
Sandy:you will be playing the role of the social worker. Okay. I will be playing the role of Caroline. And would you also read the stage? Sure.
Terry:An I N T stands for
Sandy:Interior. Interior.
Terry:I have a mental block on that. I've, I've typed it a million times by the way. Interior social worker's office. Morning, Caroline is perched on the edge of her chair. Across the desk from her is a tired social worker, forties who has been assigned Caroline's case and is giving her the exit interview. How old are you? 16. Live with your parents? Yes. parents still together? Yes.
Sandy:Do your work. I volunteer. I reach the blind one day a week for two hours in school. Cincinnati Country Day,
Terry:the social worker looks up from her questionnaire and sees Caroline for the first time. Private. Yeah. How are
Sandy:your grades? I'm third in my class. What's that mean? I get all A's.
Terry:you do. what else do you do?
Sandy:I'm a National Merit finalist. I'm on the HighQ team and the math team. I'm in the Spanish club. I'm a thespian. I'm vice president of my class. I'm on the volleyball team.
Terry:The social worker pushes the form. She's filling out, away and looks again at Caroline. You wanna tell me what you're doing here,
Sandy:Caroline? End scene. Can you read, what Steven meant by writing that
Terry:scene? Yes. The point is that drug addiction can attack anyone, even a high achieving private school student from a solid middle class family in Kentucky. It starts out, you're running around with all your friends, hurrah, you know, If you said to me, you're going to end up locked up in your bedroom thinking that police were spying from helicopters through the skylight, I'd have to say, no way. I'm going to an Ivy League college and I'm taking over the world.
Sandy:Yep. In his final days of high school, oh, Steven, he was expelled for driving a go-kart through the school halls. Which sounds incredible to me. I would, I would get, make'em valedictorian.
Terry:I, I'd like to race him. That would be a fulfillment of many of my
Sandy:dreams. he ended up getting his equivalency diploma and he attended a small business college in Massachusetts called Babson I also read though, that he attended the University of Kentucky and he was a Delta Tau Delta fraternity member. And in, the fall of 1986, Six. He spent a semester at sea. This sounds so amazing to me. Study abroad program. he attended classes aboard the Ssss universe and sailed worldwide. He sailed all over the world. so I'm assuming maybe he went to the University of Kentucky. Went to see, then dropped out and then went to the business college. That's the only way I can figure. Wow. Because you wouldn't do the other, you wouldn't go to. A small business college, then go to Kentucky. I guess you could do that. I don't know. That part was a little confusing. I have to say. While at Babson, he hooked up with some venture capitalists and started a catalog company, fallen Empire Inc. Which maybe that wasn't the best name because well, He was hoping at the time when he started the company to make enough money to support his writing and have some money left over for drugs. I mean, he was still firmly in the drug world, but Steven soon lost. Everybody's money and he skipped town and ran away to New York. And he has mentioned in throughout all the articles I read about him that that is what he did throughout his life. Whenever he got into trouble, he would just skip town. He would just move someplace else, which was just like Lole Gilmore in the Gilmore Girls. Oh, I love the Gilmore Girls. When problems got too big for the mother and daughter, they hit the road. So now you've got a drug problem. You're running from all the people that gave you money and you go to New York. Where else could you find more drugs? Maybe Vegas? Yeah, maybe Vegas, maybe. I did have a friend actually, who, became clean and sober in Vegas. I didn't know if it was gonna happen. Really? Yes. He moved to Vegas and he got clean and sober. Well, he was gambling
Terry:all the time. Sorry he was gambling all the time.
Sandy:That's how you take care of one problem. There you go. But he's good at it. Okay. So Steven, you know, he's in York. He would kick the habit for short periods of time, but you know how it goes. He started again, it started with weeded, then cocaine, and then sniffle heroin, which, was popular during the nineties. Did you? Do some sniffle bull heroin in the nineties. No,
Terry:I am into sniffle. Chocolate. Chocolate, yes. Yeah.
Sandy:Yes. He, was a full on drug addict before he knew it. But he said, he thought he was just having a literary adventure, that he was fine throughout it all. Outside of his drug friends, he was actually able to keep his addiction pretty quiet. But the one thing he couldn't hide was he was always getting arrested, and Steven thinks it could be as much as 30 arrests all over the country. Mostly Misdemeanor charges. Then there were three D U I arrests for which he was acquitted. I mean, that has to be, he got out of three of them, three DUIs. Wow. Yeah. Who's his attorney? Mr. White Privilege. Yeah. I think that's exactly who that was. Darn it. Law. Okay. But then it happened. In 1992, Steven said he used to buy drugs from underage. Oh, Steven, my goodness, you were just so terrible. From underage kids who were part of an operation out of an apartment on 18th and 15th. In Manhattan. So on October 10th, Steven was headed down eighth with a small amount of heroin in his pocket and was looking to buy half a gram of cocaine. people who do heroin, you know, they're, they're balancing themselves out with the two ends of the spectrum. He got his coke, he left the building and ran smack into a Police sting operation. and this was no minor misdemeanor. This was heroin and cocaine. Steven board money from his friends and used all of his savings and hired a lawyer. but he kept this also secret from his mother and stepfather in Kentucky. He pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor drug possession charge and was sentenced to a conditional discharge. when is that? under certain conditions, he was able to not have to be in jail, but he'd fi had to follow certain conditions.
Terry:Oh.
Sandy:But that was in 1992 and he heads to LA in 1993. So whatever conditions he was given, they must have been able to be completed in one year. Again. That's quite a privilege. Yeah. Yeah. So it's time to run away again. Sure. And so he runs away to Los Angeles and he got a job answering phones and reading for a production company and worked towards, at this point, he felt that he could write for tv, that that would be his in. And among his many rejections was. Baywatch Knight, Baywatch Knights. We are not even talking Baywatch folks. No, he got rejected.
Terry:Baywatch is a little too
Sandy:fancy by Baywatch Knight. They did a spinoff. where Hasselhoff solved crimes in the evening? You're kidding. That was Baywatch nights.
Terry:Oh, that's what, oh my. Yes. So he would leave the beach, would leave the beach, he'd put on his holster.
Sandy:I'm sure a holster was involved. Get into a talking car. Get into a talking car, right into the right into the crime business. no matter what, Steven kept writing, but also filled up his time with coke and heroin. He was living in West Hollywood, riding, taking on part-time job, staying up all night, either high or strung out life. It's a lifestyle. Wow. By the mid nineties, despite the drug use, Steven began to get work in 1995. He wrote, as I mentioned, a script for New York Undercover and wrote an American Gothic script, the Practice and Sleep walkers. I meant to look that up. I don't know what Sleepwalks is. Do you recognize that name? No. In 1997, he won an Academy Award. For co-writing an N Y P D Blue episode entitled, where's Aldo that I mentioned earlier. if you are a staff writer and you hook up with another writer and you get an Emmy nomination, that's rocket fuel to your career. Yeah. That really, pushed him forward and he says, Okay. During that whole time
Terry:I smoke crack in my office on the universal lot, always with some heroin to even it out. I smoke cracked in my office on the fox lot.
Sandy:even the bungalows, if you're on the Universal or Fox lot, The windows don't open. No. So he's just in his little writer's office. Yep. Burning incense. Yes. July, 1997. This is when Steven hits the wall. Over one long, five day, weekend, Steven had three separate heroin dealers get arrested. Three, it must have been just a, a big sweep in the city or something. Wow. His dealer. His backup dealer and his backup backup dealer gone in one day. He had no drugs and he hit that place and he describes it this way.
Terry:The total incomprehensible demoralization, that was the end of it, up five days straight, locked in the bathroom, convinced there was nowhere else to go. I had to kill myself. I am going to kill myself. I just couldn't take another minute of it.
Sandy:Steven reached out to a fellow writer and actor who got him help. And Steven has never mentioned the name of the writer actor because he feels that. That person does not want to be identified and he wants to respect that. So he's never named this person that really helped save his life. this person got him into rehab and he met a photographer there named, Michelle McCrae, and they have a son named Gardner together. in 2000 traffic comes out and he wins the Academy Award for best adapted screenplay. I mean, Bravo, Steven for, look, he had a privileged life. He did. He, you know, he wasn't Steven Spielberg's son. That we know of. That we know of. But he did have a privileged life and he went on to write a abandoned the Alamo havoc, siRNA. He wrote Call of Duty, the Game Ghosts. And last but not least, Robert Downey Jr's Dr. Doolittle in 2020. through it all, he kept writing and, this is what he told the New York Times.
Terry:I'm happy now. No one who saw me a few years ago believes I would be here. I don't know if drug addiction is genetic. I don't even know if it's a disease, but I do know one thing, you have to treat it like a disease because if you don't, you die.
Sandy:So Terry, the moral of this story is you're high on cocaine. You get an Emmy, if you're clean and sober, you get an Oscar. So remember that. Writers, okay. Reach your goals. No, but what a fascinating story. Stephen Gagan. I admire this man. I admire his persistence, He never gave up. He just kept going. obviously talented, had to be talented human being. Yeah.
Terry:to go with all these problems and really not having it stop him.
Sandy:Mm-hmm. You know, to have so much talent in you,
Terry:you know? Does this run along the lines of famous, novelists with, drinking problems? Like Hemmingway. is this part of the reason, writing can be done so well?
Sandy:Interesting. One wonders interesting. Yeah.
Terry:if anybody has some insight into this, any of our listeners mm-hmm. point it out. I'd like to know some insights.
Sandy:you can email us at the Writer Hangout podcast@gmail.com. We also have an Instagram page, We would love to hear from you. You know, one of my favorite comics is Bill Hicks. Are you familiar with Bill? Yes. Mr. Dry. Oh my God. I love Bill Hicks so great. And I mean, unfortunately, he, died pancreatic cancer, right? But he has this whole bit About drugs. about pick up an album, any album artist, hi. Some of the most creative. Amazing music was created on drugs. So it, that is a whole other, podcast, just a whole other avenue of
Terry:well in that, in that slant. I find that most people who are, are exceptionally good, creatively and especially in music. they can't accept Their talent. And they question their talent. Okay? And they really don't think they're any good. They really don't. And this weird thing of creating music in particular because it's so lively, and so emotional for people on any level to get to that stage, people can't believe it and they can't believe people. Are being truthful with'em and believe in our fans of what they do. And the drugs help that out. Apparently. Break
Sandy:down barriers like so they can emote or themselves? No. No.
Terry:Has nothing to do themselves. It has or they don't care. It's the drugs. Help them. It insulates them from their insecurity. Okay. That's how it works. Okay. Because they just don't believe that they're any good. Right. I mean, I know that they put on a big show. Mm-hmm. Especially, it makes me laugh because if you watch any kind of a music show mm-hmm. You notice how people are dressed and that helps them separate themselves from
Sandy:the moment aco it gives a, a different persona. Yeah. Oh, right. Yeah. I, it's
Terry:more or less if somebody shows up In a tuxedo mm-hmm. to get an award. they're really making a big statement like, I'm good with where I'm at.'cause there's the, place you want to go. Mm-hmm. As, as far as accepting your talent, appreciating your talent, appreciating the talent of others, and then just saying, it's my lucky day that I am. Getting an Oscar or nominated for any award and that mm-hmm. Not taking that so much, don't question what you do. Just say, this is my thing.
Sandy:Right. Bottom line, let's do it without the drugs, of course. Or the alcohol, of course. as I always tell my doctor, I just drink socially, and you'll put that down on the chart, but, Yeah. If we can get to the point, and maybe that is surrounding yourself with, people who believe in you, keep creating, get past that, I'm no good. And you can do that by just doing it over and over and over and we don't have to be, high or drunk to create.
Terry:Right. That's, that's for certain. and if you feel. Inferior because of, you know, sometimes if you, if you're a music writer specifically, sometimes you have to just turn on the radio and hear something that boy, but there's an old reference, right?
Sandy:The radio. Oh, we should, for any writers out there for first time, your background. Yeah. His music. His music, yeah. And you work with, singers all
Terry:the time. Sure. And, especially the singing thing is a good example you really put yourself out there when you're Yeah. When you're singing and you can be completely decimated if somebody, I. Mocks you or, or whatever, right. Because you're really not certain of your own talent. And it's a, Los Angeles in particular is a funny place to be. because I'm awed by the people that have trotted into my recording room and I just can't believe how good they are. Yeah. I just can't believe it Now, I've never heard of these people. But there are hundreds, maybe thousands of'em just in the city, and they're so good. Mm-hmm. And, and perhaps like, what's the Great Eagles line Why some people, have, good fortune and why are, and the rest are set free that I've slaughtered that, sorry.
Sandy:whatever that is. It sounds good. Yeah. It's a good line. also, with writing, there's so many good writers in this town. There's just so many. There's so many everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. And, that is the nature of the business. And we have to take care of ourselves.
Terry:We have to do our best work. Yep. First and foremost. Yep. Just do not slouch at any point in time. Wrestle it. Persist. Yes. Yeah, it's good wrestling with it. Just go ahead and wrestle with it. Yeah. We have to accept that. our talent is our
Sandy:talent. Yes. And you are not alone in your feelings.
Terry:And look at the, success from Steven, despite the, problems he had. His
Sandy:addictions. Yeah, his addictions. Yeah. Yep. So if you're going, huh? I stay up too late. I'm just a terrible person. No, you're not You're okay.
That's a wrap for the Writers Hangout. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, like, and thrive till we get to hang out again. Keep writing. The world needs your stories. The Writers Hangout is sponsored by the Page, international Screenwriting Awards executive producer Kristin Verne, producers Terry Sampson and Sandy at Music by Ethan Stoller.
.png)
